Getting rid of paint smell
Today’s question comes from Aaren. Aaren asks:
Hi hope you can help! My daughter’s room will not stop smelling. In fact, I challenged Olympic Paint and Lowe’s – going back and forth until we settled. KILZ and another coat of paint reproduced the original smell! Olympic even paid a professional to do all that work for us. The second coat of Premium One water based latex interior paint still smells. We have 2 air purifiers and had our windows opens for a week while painting and for 12 days afterward. …. As of today however we are dealing with a smell from Friday. It’s awful and I’m afraid to let my daughter sleep in there (although she has for two nights). WHAT can I do to make it go away. The room seems like it’s cursed. No other room in our house ever smelled like this… Please help with ideas of what to do. How long is this supposed to last. The smell is like a sweet, clay smell. It doesn’t really smell like paint at all. We even crawled into the attic to check for smell and it wasn’t present. We tried sprays, onions, vinegar, steam cleaning. Everything. Your advice would be greatly appreciated. Many thanks. Aaren
To be honest I personally have never experienced prolonged smelling after painting a room. Usually something like that might happen if there is excessive moisture which makes the paint dry slower and may contribute to the paint smelling. To try to get rid of the smell I would put a container with some coffee in it. If it doesn’t remove the smell at least will enhance the air a bit.
Lynne
Firstly, thank you William (and everyone) for your input and sorry for delay. I have a bit of a mystery going on here in the one room I had painted with zero voc paint over one year ago…it still smells like fresh paint…paint newly applied…there is also an underlying unpleasant something that kind of grips your throat temporarily that I swear has a moustache…many I’ve brought in for an objective take on it notice it and say it’s unpleasant also…
Question, what is it we are smelling when we apply new paint since it is a common, familiar odor easily identified…and what would possibly cause it to continue to smell exactly as fresh paint smells initially for 14 months…fresh paint smell usually dissipates after days, perhaps several weeks. Interestingly this paint is advertised as having ‘virtually no odor’, and is considered ‘top of the line’…Everest..
Also, would one test the air for voc’s…or what? It is a slightly acrid underlying hint of something although the main new paint smell is the main odor.
Reason for asking is I need to test the room and paint, perhaps a chip, to get to the bottom of this for all concerned…keeping an open mind until we find out the cause and proceed from there in whatever way we need to..
I would appreciate your input on this, and will share if I find anything at all that might be helpful or relevant in any way ….keeping the faith along with all of you…Lynne
Michelle
Lynne,
Mine had a wet paint smell also. One of the drywallers/tilers I had in for a quote on replacing the drywall said the smell was like acetone. Don’t know if this helps.
Michelle
Lynne
It does, Michelle…thank you so much. Bit of an enigma trying to figure out what would cause a continuing new paint smell after a year but we’re determined to do that if at all possible. Any and all info will be deeply appreciated…also, while researching I came across a post where someone said they were going to paint again using ‘clay paint’ which is natural and odor free…would that be a safe alternative?…keeping the faith with everyone..Lynn
Kane
Lynne, have you tried http://www.homeaircheck.com ? They have testing that many Indoor Air Quality specialists use. The website is informative and the tests are easy to use. If you do any self test kits, DO NOT use the cheap passive flimsy badges that Lumber Liquidators was sending out to customers to test for formaldehyde. Any kind of testing more than this will run you into the thousands which would be more than the cost of replacing your walls.Have you tried anything to curb the odor? Perhaps try the 2 proven methods (Brandie and Miss V) posted here in just a small portion of your room to see if that helps?
Jean
We did a testing in our smelly room with homeaircheck.com
Like Kane said it was easy to use and the results they emailed to us was easy to understand.
Kane
Lynne, I just wanted to add to my guess is that any tests will indicate a positive for the usual ingredients of paint and it will tough to impossible to determine which is the cause of the odor. Most likely it would be a combination of multiple but you can get the same results with a paint job with no odor.
Anita
Hi Lynne. Are you new to this blog? Where do you live? I only ask because so many have this problem that some of us have to live close to each other. Then maybe we can team up and help each other. The BEHR paint I used from Home Depot is in our throats, mouths, eyes, chests, hair and on our skin. The fumes from these dangerous paints can travel all over your house and get into furniture, clothing etc. and make your entire family sick. Call the manufacturer and get the paint MSDS (Materials Safety Data Sheet). It probably will only list a few of the chemicals, but it is a start. Acetone, benzene, hexane and many other toxic chemicals are in my paint. I would advise you to take the drywall down as soon as possible. Please keep us posted.
Kane
No need to call Behr to get MSDS, they are listed online
http://www.behr.com/consumer/products/safety-msds
Michelle
Lynn,
I would be very interested if you ever find out what is causing the smell. We had the smell in our bathroom for over a year after painting with zero voc Behr. I thought of it as a fresh paint smell. If we closed the door on the bathroom it really became strong. After treating it with a Chlorine Dioxide bomb to make sure it wasn’t bacteria we elected to remove the drywall. Currently we have it removed but not yet replaced. I am planing to use ECOS primer and paint once we have the new drywall up.
Kane
Michelle, now that your drywall is gone, is the odor conpletely gone as well?
Michelle
Yes it appears to be. We took out all walls and ceiling. Since it was a bathroom the tile went also. Took out the insulation from the interior walls. Have not yet taken out the insulation from the exterior wall but will likely do that. Because ours was only partially painted in the bad paint I think it may have been ok to leave the insulation but I’m not bucking the others experiences and being ultra safe. Once the drywall is gone it isn’t that much work or expense to replace the insulation. Does not appear to have transferred to the vanity cabinet. I just got done redoing it in Howards Restore a finish and Wax and Feed. The Restore a finish is supposed to clean the wood.
Even though ours stunk for over a year once I took out the major wall that had been painted with the Behr the smell was mostly gone. However there was a hint of it and I suspect that is because before giving up on the Behr color I had done test patches on other walls to see if I like it. Given the level of odor in our half painted bathroom from the stinky paint I really feel for those that have it on larger wall surfaces and all around the room.
Lynne
Kane, Michelle, Lisa and everyone…thanks so much for your knowledgeable input and recommendations…it’s tremendously helpful right now as I move forward in making the best decision as to how to go about finding the source of the problem with the paint/room…please keep them coming if anything more comes to mind…
I hope to do the testing this coming week and will share best I can the results…the acetone probability sounds right on…would be nice if the paint mfgs. when the problem originates with them, and there are many, many times when it does, would behave with integrity and decency instead of worrying only about ‘precedence’ and major law suits…there are a lot of honest, flexible and innocent consumers who would work this out with them fairly and in a protective way for them as well…the rep a major corp person sent to my home first said they ‘smelled new paint’. walked out of the room and said, ‘the paint is dry, I don’t smell anything’, and when I said, ‘a few minutes ago when we were in the room, you said you smelled new paint, ‘ the person denied it. It’s that kind of deception we are dealing with, a corporate attitude among many that is allowing this to continue…
If anyone knows anything about the culpability of contractors in any and all states who choose, buy and bring the paint into your home and have it applied when there is a later problem with it, please let me know…my contractor claims it is my responsibility and between the manufacturer of the product and myself…in addition, the Contractor’s Association, a good one, told me they can only monitor a contractor’s actual work, and not the products or substances they use or bring into the home unfortunately…i’lll share as this continues with what I find out later should it help anyone down the line who hired an outside source and whose work included painting…keeping the faith with all of you…I’m in awe of your courage and tenacity, and your reaching out, knowing what we are all dealing with in our homes, nests really…Lynne
Lynne
Kane…given the remediation and altho it smells like freshly applied paint with an undertone of a slightly sour chemical something, similar I would think to acetone, there is a slight possibility I was told in a telephone call with a consultant that whatever was applied for remediation, could be the source…although remediation was only done on one wall and the whole room painted, including the ceiling. I need to focus in on what to test…was thinking of a paint chip, the air for a voc using the educated nose of the person who comes here to investigate the room, a mold test of paint (a lab found stachybotrys mold in it, same kind behind the one wall, altho originally a minimal amount and not black there, but could painter have contaminated it if some was still left behind wall?,) and whatever chemical was used to do the remediation if necessary, tho doubt it would smell like paint, also how do you get behind wall to check chemical residue or whatever is done with remediation or do you use the hypodermic type test which can penetrate the wall, sample, and can be closed up again without showing. Your suggestion online and several others are good ones but I need to provide concrete proof by a third party and my timeline is short…only a week or so…so still trying to find the right lab and info…determined to get to bottom of this…have to…would like my room back…and peace of mind…keeping the faith…Lynne
Kane
Interesting new primer called “Odor Killing Primer” but doesn’t seem to be sold anywhere. Wonder if it’s made for issues many of us had/have:
http://www.rustoleum.com/product-catalog/consumer-brands/zinsser/primer-sealers/odor-killing-primer
Kane
What remediation attempt did you make? Brand of primer and paint?
Sorry but what you’re hoping to be done within a week or even months is unrealistic. www,homeaircheck.com sells testing kits that test for VOCs and formaldehyde. Testing kit takes a few days to arrive, return shipping another few days and 5 business days for test results via email. It takes air samples and can only tell you the presence of VOCs but not the source. Good luck finding anyone local or nationwide that would have the capability at any cost to find the exact chemical of the odor. Obviously it’s in what was applied to the wall but to find out exactly which layer of paint and ingredient may be impossible. Good luck and keep us posted.
Lynne
Kane, to answer specifically, the remediation was to one wall only of a small room where stachybotrys mold was found behind the wall in a small amount…the remediation contractor was hired, did the work. Only one wall was affected and it was replaced by the second substandard contractor hired who did the painting, replaced the wall and supposedly did whatever else needed after the remediation crew left…,
in pics taken when wall was opened, the visible mold was coming down the parapet wall into the window casement…someone later looking at the pics of the inside wall said it was ‘starchy looking’ from the repeated rains and poorly maintained roof.. As far as I know, the only remediation done was behind that one wall (no mold showed on the outside), but the whole room, walls and ceiling, were painted with two coats and the floor is tile.
He only waited about 30 minutes between applications, and work was done in two days, two hours or so at a time as room is small.
Re the paint itself…I think I mentioned a Tucson lab who was sent a sample of the paint found high level of propylene glycol and a little stachybotrys mold in the paint itself…re the latter, have no idea how that could have happened, if accurate and may have to pay another 100 to verify, unless the substandard subcontractor contaminated the paint or screwed up cleaning up after the remediation crew, some mold spores were still left or ?…how to test to see if the remediation wasn’t dry and might have caused the ongoing new paint odor is what i’m trying to find out now, and can I rule out the unpleasant and different smelling paint in my can vs. new cans and not test it again…your theory seems very possible and wonder if odor is only behind that one wall and that is where it was done in room and nowhere else to my knowledge, unless the spray got out of the plastic sheeting and all over the walls, and paint later applied still smells everywhere…confusing……Lynne……
…
Lisa
Lynne, if I remember correctly, your paint smelled in the can – and you still have that. My guess is there’s a good chance that you might be able to identify some contaminant or chemical that shouldn’t be there, or shouldn’t be there in that amount.
However, in many cases, and possibly in yours too (unfortunately), expert analysis would be needed, and that might not provide anything useful. Remember (from the Mayfly lab report):
“Additional unidentified compounds not discussed here were detected and determined to be off-gassing months after the application. These compounds could not be identified in the National Institute of Standard (NIST) Mass Spectrum Library, as they are not in it. Also, the manufacturer is not required to supply information on persistent residues of a product that are only present in minor concentrations of the original formulations.”
Unless you’re able to spend a ton of money for a lab that specializes in expert analysis and testimony, you may not be lucky enough to get the definitive evidence that you want. I do encourage you to do whatever testing you feel might help, because if there was mold in the can I think that would be proof enough.
Unfortunately, for many of us (I hope not you) a lab would need to identify the chemicals in the air and link them to the paint – and as Kane has said, that might be hard and expensive to do.
https://www.google.com/search?q=paint+expert+analysis+and+testimony&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8
But I encourage you to get some less exotic testimony from the kind of remediation experts that are more available to us all: those who do remediation after flood, fire, smoke, etc.. They could at least sign something saying the room still smelled like paint (or whatever else it smells like in addition). Also, just regular friends who have been in and are willing to testify as to when you painted and the fact that the room still smells, and the paint in the can smells (bring it with you to court). If I remember correctly, the store where your contractor purchased it signed the receipt that it smelled.
You can file a claim against the contractor AND the manufacturer. If the paint was purchased as part of the contract, and not by yourself – let the professional contractor try to recoup from the paint company. The paint companies respect them more anyway because they are their repeat and quantity buyers. It’s VERY difficult to fight a corporation directly – but if you have all the evidence of the problem a lawyer might be able to compose something for you to submit directly to the company regarding your damages. (that is my understanding)
Arizona is horribly low for small claims damages – looks like it’s limited to $3500. But that might cover the cost of remediation for you?
Take the paint to court with you — it is valid evidence of a problem. you still have the receipt for when it was purchased. Tell the judge your whole room smells like that.
“res ipsa loquitur” – the thing speaks for itself. The paint made your room stink. Painting a room shouldn’t make it stink – therefore – something is wrong with the paint! The product is faulty! It was even professionally applied – so no one can say you did something wrong. You could even subpoena the contractor to appear in court and testify that he handled the paint the way the material data sheet told him to (if he did – and if he didn’t they he’s the one to sue)
Why is it your responsibility to provide thousands of dollars worth of chemical analysis and testimony when the paint shouldn’t stink and it does? What you need to provide is the evidence that the paint stunk up your room. This is hard for many here to do because receipts get lost, the walls are primed over, there are no good or willing witnesses, etc. But you’ve got those because you have a signed receipt, you still have the paint cans, the paint is still on the wall, and a contractor applied it (not you).
We are being bullied. The paint companies are trying to make us out, individually, to be exaggerating, or ignorant. But, through the internet and this site – we are in touch with each other and can testify for each other that we too have experienced this. And if we keep notifying the bigger organizations about these instances – eventually the issue will become public and the paint companies won’t be able to deny it any more.
Please forgive what I’m sure comes across as direction, when in reality it’s impossible for me to know your individual situation and I may be woefully ignorant regarding important details. I hate to see the perfect be the enemy of the good. That is, just because you don’t have some forensic evidence may not mean you can’t get justice. I don’t know. But don’t give up. Whatever happens, you are contributing to the greater good. So grateful to you for that.
Lisa
If anyone has their air tested and finds something known to be toxic or carcinogenic (someone mentioned benzene?!) – please go to a doctor to find out if you can minimize the harm to yourself somehow. AND call a personal injury lawyer. You’re entering the realm of personal injury and the lawyer will know what evidence to collect – and what the worth of those expenses are.
Lynne
Kane, Lisa…again, thanks for being there…Kane, you did not know I’m being sued by the contractor for a small amount still owed because he refused to accept any responsibility for the odor in the room, even refusing to come to my home to see it as well as several large prominent nail holes in middle of one wall and a mismatched portion of ceiling (indicative of the poor work of the man he hired while he was off hunting…even had to supply the man with a mop I purchased for him) until it was paid…I waited a few months as asked by the paint rep as well as the contractor but paint smell continued, this with windows open and fan going 11 hours a day…
All of what you both say is true, some of which I did not know…entering the world of paint is surreal and what I have found is chilling. It’s obvious the paint itself is problematic, and I’ve a receipt saying it did not smell like cans of new paint but was unpleasant and different, as well as their having signed off on it, but the corporate office said it proved nothing and had no meaning…after all, they said, ‘it is zero voc and does not need to be tested for that by them’…they only tested for mold and I asked why…that was their answer…
I’ve spent hours calling around trying to find out how a consumer goes about testing a room that has a bad odor after painting, in my case one that smells like fresh paint, slightly acrid…I called universities, ASU in this case, and spoke to scientists in labs, governmental agencies, labs, most of which do not test paint unless they are the ones who do it for industries who pay 5 thousand a shot to start off with…found some charging 700 for kits…and you have to state specifically what to test for…hard to do when paint has thousands of ingredients…there is a test I believe strictly one for air which is high end and somewhere between 500 and a thousand…low end as there are others which are much more…
Additionally, as with you, lawyers, consultants, and other contractors have said, ‘why pay lawyers, etc…just redo the work yourself, pay him and be done with it’…easily said if you live in Trump Towers…aside from the injustice of that, most of us don’t have what will be roughly 10 thousand dollars for me en total…not counting the insurance money totaling 7 thousand the contractor will have received…leaving me with a room needing to be done again.
I had two tests done on the paint itself with a lab in Tucson…one found excess propylene glycol and the other found stachybotrys mold, the mold in small amounts behind the one wall where remediation was done…how it got there is a mystery as it should have been totally removed…also, I have no guarantee the lab was correct…the lab did get the ingredient sheet for the paint off the Web, but did not follow up with me as i’m considered a small job and they work with industry…I also was unable to just give them the go ahead to do the additional tests as I was taking it slow and still researching.
Today a consultant suggested that the remediation spray itself might be the culprit…it’s behind the wall and i’m wondering how that could be done without opening the wall…then again, it smells exactly like fresh paint, altho now milder but unpleasant enuff that friends said they would not want to stay in the room for any period of time. My heart goes out to so many who have far worse to deal with, which is why I said I was in awe of their strength and intelligence in dealing with something they did not cause…and especially for anyone who has health issues…Lisa has great advice on that…it’s commonly known for legal experts and the medical community that it is hard to prove but symptoms, the provable source of substandard or problematic substance like paint, etc., are still evidence and I believe the Court takes that into consideration favoring the complainant…so keeping records, writing all down no matter how inconsequential it seems at the time is important, including dates, time, any symptoms, witnesses, photos, anything…can be very helpful down the line.
I finally got to speak with a lawyer several days ago who told me about something called, and i’m rephrasing slightly, “an implied warranty of habitability’ …she explained that when we hire a contractor, we expect to be able to live in and use the room, or house, even with no contract…that’s understood…the finished product, therefore, does not met the implied warranty of habitability…those are her jotted down words…I was going to post over the week-end…
As for the privacy aspect since this is an ongoing legal situation, I’ve decided it should not matter as everything is just as it is and provable…meaning everything but the paint odor…how do I prove that…because mediation is a week away I’ve no time…if I did have it or it goes to a hearing, I will then follow up on your suggestion, Kane, unless something else opens up besides this can of worms…
I asked the lawyer for her input as to why this has hit so hard…not sleeping, stressed, etc…I felt it was because you can’t walk away from the problem, it’s in your home…and, for me, after so long still unable to find a solution, meaning just find a way to test the paint, find the source of the problem to address it, prove it, etc…the legal thing is the second part…I can’t even solve or attempt to solve the first part because everyone knows it’s nigh on impossible without thousands to hire a lawyer, one wanted five thou to start out, or pay huge amounts for testing in labs…your suggestion is also out there but may not cover enuff areas…then there’s also how to go about the litigation when nobody knew of anything, including the lawyer, on the books to protect consumers in situations like this…it’s a tossup…nothing definitive re the paint, only the contractor, and even there limited and up to the mercy of the judge or jury.
The Consumer Protection Agency had nothing either, other than posting to help others out there, and when enuff of us,…that’s as far as she went…I think they only get involved legall when there are deaths or obious outloud dangers to the public…they mean well, glad they are there, and as Lisa suggested its important we do that as may help in some way down the line as each mfg., material, etc., has it’s own listing and if you check name of yours, you may find good information from others with same problem…perhaps contact and more..
I’m feeling very frustrated at my inability to find anyone to come to my home, smell the odor and make an educated guess as to the type of odor it is, and suggest several tests of the air, a test for stachybotrys mold in both the room and the paint, already supposedly in there if accurate…this because of time limit…even before there were problems as they wanted 500 just to show up with two simple mold tests…nothing more…and that they said would be the start…plus all the other lack to protect us, legal and otherwise…
Lastly when I called one contractor today, he said he has had quite a few people with paint problems, usually sticky inability to dry after many months, and other similar things…commented it was usually zero voc paint…big question is why they get away with saying it is zero voc when it is not…may not matter to EPA is small enuff and under a certain amount, from a scientific point of view, ok, a lab thing…however, it has very serious ramifications for us, the consumers, the millions, when thepaint company uses it as an excuse not to test it when there’s a provable problem, my signed receipt…it becomes a dangerous legal liability for us in court…they can give the court papers saying it has zero voc, below such and such limits…and then it’s up to us, not them, to pay thousands to prove it…that’s corruption and if I had the money, I would challenge that…other than another paint company later claiming the same zero voc status themselves…has anyone?
Then again, there may be more to this I don’t know.
Keeping the faith…long night and long week ahead…hoping this may be of help to someone…Lynne
Michelle
Lynne,
One thing I found when having contractors over to bid removing the drywall & tile is that after smelling the room they backed out of the room. Did not even want to stand in there to do the bid because of the odor. Also had some outrageously high bids which means they didn’t want the job. Everyone I talk to claims they have never heard of this but they all could smell it and knew it wasn’t good to breath it. I did send in a request to Consumer Reports to look into this as I had gone off of their recommendation for Behr zero VOC paint. Don’t know if you want to send a request in also through their web site. The more requests they get hopefully the more likely they are to look at it. Consumers need someone like them with clout to expose the bad zero VOC paint.
Kane
Lynne, sorry to read you’re being sued. Was this room a renovation or addition? Was the drywall installed just before painting? If so, the drywall and mud may not have been dry during primer and paint application causing that fresh paint odor to not go away.
Lynne
Kane…think you may have nailed it…there was an odor, muddy, the remediation person himself said it smelled like cooked spaghetti, really unpleasant and affected my throat…I thought it was the plastic sheeting they used while spraying for remediation…a side comment is that when they first tore down the wall and supposedly had plastic sheeting to correct it, that night I felt nauseous and dizzy…I mentioned it to them…when the substandard contractor hired came in, I remarked on the lingering odor, but he shrugged (don’t think he had any experience and was not savvy generally, as I mentioned had to buy him a mop he described…did it just to keep it going and get it over with which is ironic now given my circumstances) painted one half of the room one day, and the other the next…he applied one coat, waited about 30 minutes, and applied the second coat…he was the one who cleaned up after remediation and put u p the one drywall so wonder what he might have done or not done properly…I’m on line trying to find out if I can apply the breach of habitability…seems to only apply to new construction and rentals…thanks for being there as this is so difficult to figure out…I’ve got to prove the room odor and possible hazard (if the case), as well as the paint problem, plus see if there is any residual stachybotrys mold in there, as well as see, as you point out, whether the remediation process dried properly…don’t think so…the contractor was off hunting and his officed person said not reachable when I called several times as realilzed the man he sent was substandard and problematic, i.e. prominent nail holes left in middle of wall easily fixed…even toothpaste would have done it…and contractor claims he did a final walkthrough…the evidence he did not is that he wouldn’t have left them there nor an unmatched portion of ceiling, glaringly so…with all that, online info doesn’t clarify whether I can apply what that lawyer told me, so will have to wait til Monday to see…if I had the money for all this, hiring a lawyer and testing having been left unfairly with the problem, it’d be a no brainer hard as it is…what do we consumers do? I’m sure i’m not alone with two connected issues…the paint is the bottom line and the culprit or, as you point out and I have to prove this, the contractor’s hired person with him gone did not do the work properly…
Given that, what can I test for to see if remediation spray not properly dried caused the lingering odor?…There is also the reality that my two paint cans smelled unpleasantly and differently than the two new unopened cans of the same paint.
I’ll keep researching all week end but, like with all of you, keeps you up at night and is a bummer…keeping the faith…and thank you, too, Lisa…means so much now…thanks for being there…Lynne
Michelle
Lynne,
Just so you know my Behr zero VOC paint in the can smell really strong. Much more so than any other zero VOC paint I have ever used. We were painting over existing drywall so nothing new to dry out.
Michelle
Lynne
Thanks, Michelle. About your paint, I was told by a lab that sometimes the paint after production and in holding spaces, may not be properly mixed so that there is a higher percentage of an ingredient in some cans distributed later to stores that can be problematic…also that mold can form for various reasons altho relatively rare I believe…but with the millions statistically there would be a reasonable number of consumers affected…right now my search expanded with new info from Kane and Lisa as to possible cause and how to prove it…keeping the faith with you…gotta be a way…Lynne
Kane
Lynne, recoating after only 30 minutes may be the cause of the problem. The 1st layer of paint was barely dried and now is trapped not dry or cured under the 2nd layer and whatever else was topcaoted afterwards.
EVERY latex interior paint has a recoat time of at least 1 hour and most in the 2-4 hour range and that’s under ideal condition. Low temps and high humidity add to the dry and recoat time. Dry to touch and recoat times are 2 very different things (please google it). I’ve included links to a couple of data sheets for popular paints that clearly show recoat times being 2 hours or more.
http://www.behr.com/cma/Canada/English/Behr/Marketing/Products/product_sheets/1450_PS_R114.pdf
http://www.benjaminmoore.com/DownloadBinaryServletTDS?fileName=20140604_549_TDS_US_OKF.pdf&propertyName=multidatasheet%5B0%5D.data_sheet_file_en_US&np=productcatalog_datasheets%2Ftds%2FTDS_0549
http://www.neo.ne.gov/home_const/prod_pdfs/sw_pb5.pdf
Since your time is limited and you want to prove my theory you can try this. Buy a quart of Behr or Glidden paint for $10 at Home Depot. I like Glidden quarts cause the date of manufacture is stamped on bottom.
Paint a piece of small cut out drywall like 12″ x 12″ which you can obtain possibly from scraps of a job or even Home Depot. Paint the entire piece. Wait 30 minutes and apply 2nd layer to half of it. Wait a day to paint 2nd layer to the other half. After a couple of days the result is the half recoated in 30 minutes will likely give off a foul odor while the side recoated after a day will have little to no odor.
Kane
Lynne, my previous comment awaiting moderation due to copy of url links…but applying second coat only 30 minutes after the first coat is a complete no-no and likely the cause of your odor issue. See my more detailed comment once it passes moderation.
Lynne
Kane…think may need also to test paint in can to see if checks out safely, i.e. stachybotrys mold possibility in Tucson test which would mean testing a paint chip on wall also I think…I doubt it but could be and, if so, a hazard in room and would show remediation not completed properly
However, re your comment, the man waited somewhere between roughly one half hour to 45 minutes at most, each day, as I remember clearly he was only here less than two hours and rushing off to other jobs where he was expected
If that is the problem, will the paint and smell be hazardous and forever outgassing…and can it just be repainted or does it need specific coatings…re latter, i’m assuming the e-mail i’m waiting for will have something about that…
This is so helpful and gives me hope there’s a solution…have to find out how I prove, if it’s the case, that this hired help was totally incompetent, which he was sadly and his work proves that…no-one leaves glaring big nail holes in the middle of the wall…a no brainer literally…why do that, takes a minute to fix…
To sum up, although stinky in can, may not be the paint but how applied, and wonder how that can be proved scientifically…perhaps by these paint expert witnesses, thanks Lisa, which largely depend on visual inspections, perhaps more…I believe they are savvy experts and trusted by the court…far better that if not too expensive than testing this week at 100 a shot with no clue…or if a hearing later on with more time, what you suggested…..
If that is the problem, is the paint and smell hazardous and will it be outgassing indefinitely and perhaps never leave…and can it be removed by painting over it or does it need special coatings first before being painted again…do the dry walls need to be removed sometimes…I have to prove the wrong application, if so, so that the contractor is held responsible to pay for doing it correctly and removing the problem he created I think.
Haven’t received the e-mail yet you referenced…if you can, please send it again…Lynne
Kane
Lynne, I posted the info here but since it contained links, it has to wait to be approved. Yes the worker is and was incompetent if he’s applying a second layer of paint so soon. Google technical data sheet of any major brand of latex paint (Benjamin Moore, BEHR, Glidden, Sherwin Williams OR specifically the one you used. They ALL have a recoat time of 2-4 hours. Dry to touch is anywhere from 30-60 minutes. You can have perfectly good paint but not applied properly, it’s out of the paint manufacturer’s hands. The instructions are on the can which I know most people ignore.
To test, get a piece of material ideally a scrap of drywall. If you can’t get one try a block of wood or even cardboard. Go buy a $10 quart of paint and apply to 2 scraps at the same time. Wait 30 minutes and apply a second coat to one piece. Wait a day to apply second coat to the other. Compare/sniff both pieces. Likely the one applied within 30 min will have a foul gassy odor because the bottom layer never dried and is now trapped in a state of wetness under the 2nd coat.
Kane
Lynne, this is copied directly from the paint manufacturer’s data sheets: Behr Marquee 1-2 hours recoat time, Ben Moore Regal Select 1-2 hours recoat time, Sherwin WIlliams Harmony 4 hours recoat time.
Lynne
Kane, yes, thanks so much for your input as was just researching on my own online and all concurs with what you say although you put it far better and more comprehensively…I would agree in all fairness that if the paint was applied incorrectly, the paint manufacturer should not be held accountable for any problems as the product itself meets required standards and is of good quality. The several concerns I have about the paint itself in my case is that the two cans of paint I brought into the store, as requested by the manufacturer to be compared and if necessary, tested, both had an unpleasant odor which was different from the two new unopened cans…also there was a high level of propylene glycol which is a common ingredient, but it also tested positive for black mold. There is slilght mustiness some have smelled as well tho not heavy. Just don’t know.
Also, having lugged in the two large cans as requested for possible testing, and given the paint manufacturer has it’s own lab here, I was curious as to why they did zero testing for any voc’s and surprised by their claim there was no need to do so since the paint was ‘zero voc’…may have been ‘legally’ borderline correct, although it can be easily proven it is not as everyone knows that and it is debatable and probably can be disproven in court by a good lawyer representing a client with good cause. Secondly, I was told that the odor was the same as the batch it came from…and they have the right to discard that batch at any time, never keep a sample to my knowledge, which would seemingly take them off the hook…i.e. why would paint smell so unpleasantly, and glaringly different from other two cans. The corporate office said my signed receipt confirming this by two employees, ‘didn’t mean anything’. Later a corporate one up the ladder told me he wold repaint the room…but we all know if the paint is the culprit, you lose the evidence. Lastly, he sent a rep to my home as I wrote earlier, who first said she smelled ‘fresh paint’ in the room, walked out, looked me in the eye and said, ‘the paint’s dry. I didn’t smell anything at all.’ It was a glaring lie…not a matter of two opposing noses when she first said she smelled fresh paint.
Also with regard to the claim that all noses smell the world differently and uniquely like two one of a kind snowflakes…not accurate. Look up any NASA or governmental bulletins with regard to hazardous or dangerous materials, including bombs, gas stoves, etc….and they all, and I mean all, clearly tell the public, military, to be on the lookout for certain identifiable odors that warn of danger.
That applies to paint, and trying to worm out of it is disingenuous, dishonest and dangerous to the many out here, not only with paint but any other substance that goes directly into homes and the skin and veins and brains of women, children, the elderly, pets…etc. Nothing can defend this kind of subterfuge and overprotective behavior on the part of any manufacturer, not just paint, whose main motive is profit. I and others are not enemies of the paint mfgs…in fact, I applaud their research into trying to find safer paint and many people working there are decent and feel the same way…but how do you get through to those who make the decisions and put lawyers in place who do not always serve them well. Of course there are those at the top who have behaved criminally without concern for the safety of millions of their fellow human beings and I have no problem in mentioning the Koch brothers, not a political statement as that’s besides the point here and not relevant, and they’ve cleaned up their act a little and hopefully will behave far better. I still have hope for those among us who have made serious mistakes and have changed. They exist.
So they have not been honest with me. They’ve lied and wormed out of testing this odor properly or providing me with any information other than a one paragraph letter from the supposed tester in the lab which I had to get from the contractor. They refused to give me a copy.
However, even with that, the only way forward for me in terms of my own integrity is keeping an open mind as to what I find and I will address it accordingly. Like most of you. That I have little money is not what is motivating me to pursue this and make someone else pay for whatever problem exists. If I stoop to their level, cliché but true, I’ll have lost far more than my room and peace of mind this past year. Don’t mean to sound holier than thou, just that who we are in our own skin matters far more than even we realize and know you know what I mean. So many on this site have reached out and tried to help each other even with all they are going thru, and it’s good to see.
It’s uphill for me I know, but frankly I’m just trusting to God, appropriate comment or not here, and doing the best I can to solve this and get on with my life.
I’ll share what I can in hopes of helping others…as you have. I have no idea, but will, whether it is the paint itself or how it was applied. I haven’t found anything on line stating you will have a permanent ongoing new paint smell for over a year, but then again as you suggest, it may be possible. On the other hand, there is the actuality of the spoiled or contaminated smelling paint in the can, verified, and later dismissed by claiming it does not have voc’s which it does…and also the tests showing the mold if accurate. As I said, I would want to make sure that is accurate as it has far reaching implications.
Again, thanks Kane for your great suggestions, and everyone, all of which will be very helpful this coming week and a Godsend……Lynne
Lynne
Kane, forgot to ask if the first layer of paint, if it was left wet, is still wet and can be tested for that…the paint feels dry on the wall and it, I believe, already contains a primer…it also looks fine with no drips or wrinkles, and were it not for the odor, would be fine…It’s one of Dunn Edwards considered best and advertised as ‘virtually no odor’ although when the can was first opened the odor was so strong I was surprised thinking zero voc would smell less, and I mentioned it to the sub contractor who just shrugged…had I any knowledge at all that this type of thing could happen, I would have called the contractor…but then again he was off hunting. Could be all paint has same initial odor and non or zero voc then dissipates more quickly and is gone with nothing to outgass, or very ltitle.
Kane
Lynne, best thing to do is try the test I suggested. It will cost you less than $15 and results in 2 days.
Buy a quart of paint and try it the wrong and the right way on a piece of material (ideally drywall) and you can see for yourself. It would be impossible to tell if the bottom layer is still wet or not. It may be “dry” but not “cured” . It would probably look and feel the same. Paint is pourous so any offgassing from bottom layers will come thru the top layers.
Anita
Lynne, you are just one of many who know that BEHR paint stinks right out of the can. You know you have been lied to. Home Depot, Sherwin Williams and others have been successfully sued for their misleading “NO VOC” paint claims. The only reason they wouldn’t test the paint for VOCs is because they know there are VOCs in the paint. Google and read: HOME DEPOT PAYS 8M TO DITCH HIGH-VOC PAINT SUIT – Law 360. Also Google: VOC FREE / ORGANIC INTERIOR PAINT CLASS ACTION LAWSUITS. You may be able to get legal help with your problem. God bless you. Please keep us posted. Where do you live?
WilliamE3
I am now having my contractor coat my place with Zinsser BIN Shellac. Man, that odor is powerfully strong!
We are discussing how soon to top-coat it (after this weekend is minimum) with Harmony.
He has had good experience top-coating it relatively soon – next day – to encapsulate the BIN and rid the place of the BIN odor quickly. (The BIN odor is stronger than the underlying bad paint). He is aware that there is a 30 day full “cure time” for many products.
I’m thinking the longer the delay, the more the BIN will completely cure and out-gas, and the less “encapsulation” and containment is needed. And that most of the out-gassing will be accelerated sooner rather than later. I’d rather most of it be gone than encapsulated.
Does anyone have any thoughts or experience with this?
Recommendation: aerate for a week or seal immediately?
Lisa
William, we did BIN – two coats in the autumn, after the room had smelled bad for a year. three weeks later there was still a lingering odor, so we did another coat of BIN. Things seemed good at that time. We waited until the next summer (9-10 months) to see if the smell was really gone. The smell resurfaced in the summer, although it did have a different quality. We applied more BIN, which didn’t change anything. So, a month later we applied a topcoat. Then there was a worse smell. We never got rid of the smell in that room until we replaced the drywall.
Some people say that the dry BIN emits an odor. It’s possible that’s true, but we could get no advice or assistance from the paint company, so we had to go with the cause being the original paint – which has been proven to happen in some investigations.
http://mayflylab.com/3.htm
Also, it’s possible that the final topcoat might have stopped smelling eventually, but how long were we supposed to wait? It had been two years of stink, so we removed the drywall.
So – I can’t really give you any advice. In my mind, you’re taking a risk no matter what you do. I sincerely hope it works for you. We always chose to wait between our attempts at remediation, because we found that the problem was so changeable based on temperature and humidity.
Miss V
Because I had such a problem myself, the only thing that worked for me was leaving the sealer on for an extended amount of time, rather than rushing with the topcoat. I think I rushed in my previous attempts to topcoat, usually doing it within days of the Kilz Max being applied (multiple coats). In my last and successful attempt, I let the final coat of Kilz sit on the walls for 2 weeks. Then I topcoated, and no smell. I was SHOCKED. I don’t know how good the Zinsser shellac base is, but to be safe and not waste unnecessary money, I’d try to let it sit on the walls for as long as I could tolerate it.
Brenda
We used a sealer then 5 coats of the BIN Zinsser. It didn’t work!
Lynne
Brenda…as with everyone dealing with stinky, better known as pongy, paint…aside from the non-exist altho prominently advertised virtually no odor zero voc paint, as in Dunn Edwards…why oh why are there no provisions in place in the event that the paint does smell given a percentage statistically will have some kind of problem in the manufacturing, storage, dispersion and dispensement. Yes, there is the two way factor, the paint mfg. and distributors, vs. the consumer, meaning us, when one or the other can cause it but that is easily ruled out by way of comparisons to the original batch, comparison to other same paint in new unopened cans (as with me), and the way the paint was applied, as Kane points out, since it must be done according to the mfgs. instructions. That’s a given and respected.
However, my cans of paint stunk ‘unpleasantly’ compared to the new cans and was different, the mfg. refused to test the paint in their own labs which would have been relatively inexpensive for them as it was already in place, for the voc’s which are usually the source of the odor and which, after all, might have been the reason my paint continued to smell like new paint…granted the application is a possibility altho i’m told more remote. Why not just do it rather than deny there are voc’s when there are, scientifically, voc’s in the paint I can take them to court to prove when I win twenty thousand in the irish sweepstakes or discover oil on my balcony. Course lawyers know that will discourage me to pursue it and I’ve been told by many in the biz and them to ‘just do it yourself, why spend the money and time…you might lose being up agains a big corp.’
Then, lest I forget, a higher up corporate person who was head of all the stores spoke of integrity, willingness to paint over the room knowing, c;mon, that it would destroy the evidence…Lisa has been right on all of it…I checked and am living it…and then sent a doe-eyed woman to my home who entered room, said, I smell new paint, walked out and said, the paint is dry and I didn’t smell anything.’ Lied blatantly with the, i’m sure, pre-discussion with the corporate person I spoke with. So it’s a setup, folks, for the most part although I can only speak of Dunn Edwards and several of their lackeys. How high up it goes, I don’t truly know.
I’ve lived it. Also, as Lisa pointed out with the Mayfly post, accurate and chilling, they, all of them, know that it’s set up in a way where we, the consumer, has to prove it on our end alone. Why? Why is there nothing set up in some form, like an ombudsman type of thing, where both parties privately and protectively for the paint company as I understand there are dishonest folks out to cheat and make a buck on the other side, so that precedence causes them to behave criminally and dishonestly as with me. I was told the signed receipt in the store saying the paint was unpleasant smelling and different…’meant nothing and proved nothing’ by customer service in L.A. corporate office by Les…plus he promised me a copy of the lab report if I brought it in…and I was refused a copy…never got it. I can go to court, subpoenae it, so can I borrow ten thou from someone?
Point being, their behavior is reprehensible, not always, some…can’t paintbrush across the whole industry…or can you?…don’t know…but they do and they know it all and more…they’ve the scientists, lawyers, millions to do it…it’s billions, folks…so I can understand their caution but not when we are dealing with a potentially dangerous substance that can injure and eventually cause the demise and death of some…and equally as important their quality of life and the habitability of their home, nest, room…the safety of the babies, children people on this site have written about desperately…the others who have been to the ER with symptoms hard to prove…and yes the paint mfgs. have medical physicians and researchers who are hired as consultants, sometimes for good reasons…
These are not isolated cases…it is a dangerous substance…and as for noses not being reliable, tell that to NASA,, schools, hospitals, the military community, construction industry and others who prominently have on many substances WARNINGS, specirfically instructing the consumer to be cognizant of how it’s used, a nod to Kane, but also to make sure that if YOU SMELL THE FOLLOWING ODORS THERE IS POSSIBLE SERIOUS DANGER…to health, the possibility of combustion, etc. The gas companies warn about the odor of rotten eggs.
Some agency, advocate group, somewhere, perhaps a watchdog group with a university…erin brockavich’s office which exists and handles many things could be contacted by us as they have many contacts global;ly, and could connect us or give us suggestions…she’s been there…may not touch this as is busy with Flint…but am almost certain they would help in some way…small as it may be if we wrote, came up with a good letter or presentation and could do it online.
We are not out to harm the paint manufacturers, some of whom are really trying to come up with a safer better product…but it works both ways and you do not leave consumers in the lurch, lie about a product knowing it’s inherent dangers, albeit rare but rare here statisticallty with millions of homes means thousands, even if it’s hundreds, that are being compromised as is the health and well being of the families since we are dealing, and we all know that, with a potentially dangerous bunch of chemicals.
Given the complexity and difficulty, why should I, the consumer have to prove in Court that the product is sub standard or problematic when, and believe this should be considered, it is not only almost impossible to delineate what is causing a problem with thousands of interactive chemicals in paint, but costs many thousands as you have to specifically ask for each test by name or have the whole thing done by mortgaging your home.
The nature of the product, it’s inherent difficulties and unusual properties, and it’s potential hazardous qualities should be considered in this and something set up to protect the consumer.
No, Donald Trump can’t and won’t.
Lynne
Michelle
William,
I reread this thread through 3 times to try and identify a paint to use after our drywall replacement is done. I believe SW Harmony is one several have had problems with having a smell. The one I decided on is ECOS based on some posters with good experiences and/or chemical sensitivity. You do have to order it on-line. I haven’t gotten it yet as our drywall is going up now. But for what it is worth, my research seemed to say this was the safest choice.
Brenda
Michelle you are brave! I hope the paint you choose works for you. I know I will never paint again. I have been on a month long vacation so it’s been nice not being home, how sad is that! I dread going back and having to deal with my paint issue.
Michelle
Lisa,
The mayflylab link is really interesting. I believe that is exactly what is happening with all of our rooms that get stinky paint.
WilliamE3
Thanks – I am immediately concerned about the strong BIN smell.
And whether to top coat sooner or later (a day or a week)?
Kane
WilliamE3, like Lisa I didn’t have success with my attempt with BIN. There was a very strong initial odor that faded to chemical odor. I allowed the full 7 days to cure before top coating. Many contractors and painters will say anything to just complete the job, get paid and move on. Some are honest but many are not. I would advise wait a full week and also paint another uncontaminated surface such as scrap drywall, piece of wood and compare the smell of that and your contaminated walls after a week has passed. BIN is praised by all painters and paint stores for odor killing but it’s more for traditional odor issues like smoke or fire…not for stinky paint. Hope it works out for you.
Kane
Miss V, in previous posts you mentioned you painted 6 layers over Kilz Max. Curious what sheen was it; flat, eggshell, semi gloss?
Anita
Hi Brenda. How are you doing with the chemical fumes from the paint at your house? I was wondering what kind of flooring you have in the bedroom that was affected. Maybe the flooring or carpet absorbed the fumes and needs to be removed also.
Anita
Brenda, any improvement? I wonder if the chemical fumes might have gotten into your carpet or flooring in the bedroom where you have the problem. What kind of flooring do you have?
Brenda
Anita,
We have been on vacation for the past month visiting friends and family but was no improvement before we left. We have wood floors no carpets. Haven’t decided what to do yet. Makes me sick thinking about having to rip out new Sheetrock!
Michelle
Brenda,
Maybe it is the new sheetrock that smells? We just had the joints mudded yesterday and I left the windows and doors open all night with a fan on it. Still stinks this morning.
Brenda
It’s not the new sheet rock. It’s been months since we had the new Sheetrock done and we let it set for a week once the new Sheetrock was put in before we painted. It’s the paint that is no good!!!!!!!!
Anita
Hi Brenda. Sorry to hear. There hasn’t been any improvement with us either. Have you tried placing a dehumidifier in the room and closing the door?
Brenda
Anita,
I have not tried a dehumidifier as I don’t have one, they are expensive and I don’t need one for the basement. Also I think I read where others have tried that and it didn’t work. I really don’t think anything works short of getting it completely out of the house. ?
We have been out of the house for 3 weeks and are heading home next week. I dread having to go back and deal with this again!
Kane
Anita, what was the nature of your issue again? I scrolled up several hundred messages but only got bits and pieces that your in the Philly area and that you used Behr paint from Home Depot.
Nancy
It’s the cheap paint from Lowe’s or Home depot. Behr paint in my case. A NIGHTMARE. our new sunroom had one unpainted wall, the rest glass windows. No problems all winter.
That spring, I painted with cheap Lowe’s paint. Nightmare begins. Cat pee ammonia smell whenever the room is closed up, or when humid. it’s AWFUL. bought a special UV light to search for urine….nope. all clean. Found the internet postings for this problem. It’s the low VOC paint, they put extra ammonia in it.
Next summer, I painted with a kick butt sealer from Sherwin Williams. STILL a low level of smell. It’s bugs me terribly, to know that the next humid day it will smell again, even at a low level.
So….we are tearing out the wall this weekend. I have not other option. It’s been two years of livign with it and I’m done.
Kane
Michelle, did you finish re-doing your bathroom? If so, how did it turn out?
Michelle
Kane,
We are stuck in drywall mud drying stage. Tomorrow it will have been a week since the last bit of mud went on. It has/had a strong sweet clay like smell. I am not going to prime until the smell is gone. The drywaller used USG Plus 3 joint compound for all three layers. Actually I think he did 3 progressively larger joint coverage and then 1 for the overall texture after sanding. Then we did a bit more on the texture to touch up some spots and add a little more in places. The bathroom has no exterior window so I have been running the exhaust vent and then sometimes a fan but I don’t like to do the fan as it is probably stirring up the dust from sanding. When the door is constantly open you don’t smell it much. But since our dog likes to go in there we have to close the door when we are away from the house. Then the odor is still very strong. Similar to the stinky Behr paint.
I looked up the MSDS for USG Plus 3 joint compound and it says low to no odor. On-line most people say the odor is gone in a day. We have been having higher humidity here than usual. A friend who owns a bunch of rentals says it usually takes a week for it to dry out completely and longer with humidity. The drywaller guy says they prime the next day but I am too cautious of the smells to do that.
Kane
Michelle, are your studs wood or steel? I have seen odor cases (smoke, fire…not chemical that many of us here have experienced) where the wood behind the drywall absorbed the odor and had to be sealed or replaced. Steel obviously is unlikely to hold odors.
Kane
Michelle I just wanted to add that when I had my paint odor issue, all my wood and particleboard Ikea absorbed the odor and had to be discarded which is why I’m wondering if your studs may have done the same.
Michelle
Kane,
The current smell is the drywall mud. I only referenced the Behr smell because the both increased when we had the doorway closed. Once the drywall was out of the room there was no smell even with the doorway closed all day so I am confident the paint smell is gone. The mud is taking a long time to dry properly. I was just surprised by the odor because the MSDS said low to no odor and the on-line contractor forums talked of it being gone in 24 hours. However when talking to other people they said their drywall mud took a week to dry in our very dry climate and longer if we were having moisture like we are now having
Kane
WilliamE3, any good news to report?
JG
To those affected by this issue I feel you pain.
We moved into a new house in Sept 2015, and the first thing we did was prime and paint a room using Sherwin Williams quick dry primer and two coats of Emerald. (yes, we waited the dry times on the can and then some) Much like all of you within a week the room had a horrible sickly odd smell. We made our son move to the spare bedroom and emptied the room of everything. Quickly narrowed it down to the new paint on the walls. When the walls get hit via the sunlight the stink becomes even worse. On a sunny day if you close the door and turn the fan on… YUCK
We sealed the room with plastic and contacted Sherwin Williams who sent a rep out… That rep “couldn’t smell anything” despite dozens of other people saying the room stinks. He spent 30 minutes trying to convince me I must be smelling the air freshiner he saw in our downstairs living all the way upstairs in a sealed off room. Despite “not being able to smell anything” they took our old paint (“to test it”) and provided me with shellac primer and a new top coat of harmony.
I applied the shellac and harmony paint about 6 months ago, and as I’m sure you can all anticipate by now… It still stinks. We have a room that is unusable due to stinky walls, and no way to apparently fix it short of tearing out all the drywall (and likely carpet that has by now probably absorbed the odor). This has been a horrific experience, and we were fortunate to have an extra bedroom. I can’t imagine the frustration of those of you that don’t have an extra room.
To those who may find this post in the future, take a few lessons from me:
1) DO contact your paint company and demand they FIX the problem
2) DO NOT give them all the remaining paint to test it. We received no testing report, just a verbal response it tested ok. Quite honestly I wonder if they took the can to make it disappear.
3) If they do provide you paint for free (not that it will help) DO read the paper they ask you to sign “acknowledging receipt” and DO NOT sign it. It was not just a receipt, but in the small print section it is a contract that holds them harmless for any damages, further remedies, and prevents you from suing them.
4) If they refuse to give you the paint without signing the form and you have a lawyer… Talk to the lawyer before taking the paint. When it comes time to sue them for the cost of demo, drywall, re-painting you’ll be glad you did! (At least the pacific north west redoing a room is not cheap…)
*sigh*
Suri Wilson
I am disabled and was living in public housing. When I went to my son who died in the hospital for about three weeks, somebody cooked meth in my apt and posioned me. I couldn’t figure it out for a long time, but bought some meth test and it tested positive. They cooked some hamburgers or something meaty and left grease all over my stove. I was freaking out wondering why someone would break in just to cook????
Fastforward, I started getting stalked and got scared. I moved in with my sister and she has animals. I am alergic to animal smells and the bedroom she gave me needed pain, floors, etc….So she helped me and I went to Lowes and asked the lady working there to help me find a primer to kill animal smells. She sold me the wrong KILTZ and I didn’t realize it until the off gassing just would not go away. For over a year, I slept on her couch. Hurt my shoulder with all the painting and sleeping on my shoulder so now I am schelduled for Rotator Cuff Surgery next week. I called KILTZ support center and they told me to buy KILTZ MAXX and put a top coat on it within a month. This was about three months ago. The off gas was so bad for over a year and now I finally moved into the bedroom and Im having headches, etc….Still off gassing but not as bad. I’m thinking about wallpappering the room with some natural allergy type of material. Has anybody thought about doing that? Also, not to freak people out but when they sell paint and those stores, it could have been posioned with muric acid before getting returned to the store. Maybe the paint was intended for someone else and they changed their minds and returned posioned paint. I wish there was a law where nothing like paint can be returned and resold. I did have the paint on the back porch for about a month before using it.??? If anybody ever goes through a home invasion where some psycho is trying to hurt them, they will always be wondering if they are still getting secretly posioned. I had to throw away everything I owned and my head was on fire. All my hair fell out. I know my neighbors were drug dealers and wanted me to move but to go to that extreem is really psycho. I never knew these type of people existed. Ive read a lot about meth and gangs and they will cook it in grandmas kitchen when she is in the hospital, new homes being built by some meth head with the keys, travel trailers of course…..I won’t buy anything used never again. My friend owns a consignment store and she says the girls going through the clothes sometimes get nauseated and sick. I threw everything away. Saved some in large plastic bags for evidence if I ever need it. I couldn’t sell anything. I took the loss instead of passing on posioned clothes, jewelry, shoes, purses, makeup, bedding, curtains, bed, air conditioner, ….you name it, I lost it. I would estimate it to be around a $70,000 loss. They took everything from me and almost killed me. I’m not saying this is happening to yall, but get a meth test and see if anybody cooked some in your home. That is a start. My original thought is…..Has anybody used wall paper to try to cover up and block the smells? Im going to try it.
Lisa
So sad and frustrating to see new visitors forming the same conclusions that many here formed a year or even two years ago:
that the paint companies know about this and are purposefully avoiding responsibility in informing and assisting their affected customers
It’s obvious that our little page here is not helping anyone to either avoid this problem OR deal effectively with it once it happens. That is, no one here has been able to hold their manufacturer financially responsible because we still haven’t gotten the word out about dealing with this as soon as it presents itself, and by “dealing with” I mean dealing with the manufacturer.
People who find themselves here are too late, or can’t manage the time to read all the advice about not just notifying the manufacturer, but dealing with them as JG has just advised, and as I have advised several times over the last year. For example, I’d already advised not to give all your left-over paint back to the company, and yet it’s still happening because this information hasn’t reached a larger public.
I don’t have a lot of time for this anymore, but I’m going to try to write some things again and hope I haven’t forgotten anything. Also, I’m guilty of not getting back to the FB page to write more. But I will not let this go indefinitely. It’s only with our co-operative effort and our willingness to do more than try to just solve our own problem that this will ever change for the better.
Notify the manufacturer as soon as you realize you have a problem. If you’ve properly applied the paint to properly prepared walls, it should smell no longer than a month at the most.
Insist that a rep visit and get a something signed as to his or her witness of the smell – insist that they examine all culprits in the room (ceiling, walls, adjacent rooms, basement, attic, etc. – or have a remediation expert come and give their assessment (usually free) that is – someone who deals with smells and clean up from smoke, fire, flood, biological events like death or pets, etc.. They will probably not be familiar with it, but that’s ok – just get that in writing like “I don’t recognize the problem, but I recommend xyz…”
It’s important to rule out other causes like bad drywall, dead animals, stinky carpet, etc. We know that the smell is from the paint when the room didn’t smell beforehand and the walls alone now smell – but you need evidence that will help you after the fact.
If you’re suffering from headaches, nausea or worse, – go to a doctor and tell them what’s going on. Get a diagnosis. If it seems that your medical problems are coming from the paint fumes, notify a personal injury lawyer. Such a lawyer may help you if s/he feels there’s a personal involved because there’s more money available to make it worth their while, whereas simple property damage is insufficient. Dont’ mess around with your health. It’s not unusual to become “sensitized” as a result of this kind of exposure – that is, once you’re exposed to these chemicals in the air you’ll always react when exposed to the same chemicals in the future.
Don’t sign a release in exchange for the cost of primer or the like, and if you’re afraid that priming over the bad paint isn’t going to work, then don’t do it until you have some kind of agreement from the paint company that if the primer doesn’t work they’ll take the next step with you. And be forewarned: it’s going to be very difficult or even impossible for you to work this out in that way BECAUSE the paint company has obviously dealt with numerous complaints of this nature and has yet to be held accountable in a comprehensive way. That means they’ve already got their defensive game plan in place – and we are the ones who have experienced that so far.
I know this because I went through it. At the risk of sounding like a conspiracy theorist, I will tell you that it’s so important for the companies to continue to avoid liability on this that they will go to almost any extent to discredit or undermine your credibility and the legitimacy of your claim.
If you’ve got extensive problems like multiple rooms affected, that couldn’t possibly be compensated for in small claims, you’ll have to go to a lawyer. At that point I can’t advise you because I have no idea how the cost comparison would play out. These paint companies are global and there’s big money here. The home insurance carriers are likewise not getting involved and are saying this isn’t covered and are discouraging people from filing claims. These are all bit corporations who are willing to turn the cost of these bad products back onto the working class people who were trying to save money in the first place by DIY-ing.
It’s very likely that claims from contractors who’ve painted multiple rooms in new houses, or even old, are being settled quietly between the victims and the paint companies. We aren’t allowed to learn about that unless we press the matter in court cases, using interrogatories and requests for admissions, and we’re willing to fight and keep fighting for full disclosure. Otherwise, the paint companies are well within their rights to hide all this information from us and from their future customers.
I think it’s interesting that the Paint Research Association, which is a global industry organization, has removed its webpage on “Wall Odour Phenomenon”. Why? I can’t think it was because little ol’ yours truly tried to submit it as evidence in a small claims case – my ego isn’t THAT inflated. But, I don’t doubt that it’s related to pressure from the organization’s members, who are all receiving complaints about this problem, and just don’t want to hear about it.
This is a bona fide problem, and every paint can should have a warning on it about the issue, with instructions as to what to do should the problem occur – including notifying the manufacturer. As it is now, very few people keep receipts for the length of time that it sometimes takes this problem to appear. And if, like me, your paint was miserable to work with and you ended up using every drop trying to get a decent-appearing finish, you had no paint left over and you chucked the cans – allowing the company to say “You don’t have batch numbers or a sample, so you’re SOL (basically)” – don’t give up. We had our receipt, even though we didn’t have the paint. Maybe you have the paint but no receipt – that will do as well. The companies aren’t warning us to keep receipts and paint cans, so they can’t turn around and say it’s our fault they can’t help us.
Notify:
The Consumer Product Safety Commission
The Attorney General in your state (division of consumer affairs or similar division)
Local health department, if possible
The Federal Trade Commission
Consumer Reports
Local and larger media and
every one you know
Be sure to also inform the retailer where you purchased the paint. Talk to a manager and tell them you want the store to notify the manufacturer about the incident as well
Give as much detail as possible
Will this help you fix your walls? No. you’re going to have to try to do that one way or another, since the manufacturers aren’t giving advice beyond priming (they aren’t recommending masonry primer, although this has been recommended in the UK as alkali-resistant primer. They aren’t recommending it because that would be an admission that they’re aware of the problem! They will continue to recommend regular primer because that’s the generic way to deal with odors. And we know it doesn’t always work. But that’s not the concern for them! it’s about getting you off their backs!)
But it might help you if you’re trying to get financial compensation. If you haven’t already covered the bad paint, and you’re interested in trying to get compensation and assistance from the paint company – DON’T prime over the bad paint until you’ve got something in writing that will assure you haven’t signed away your rights to collect further.
Enough for now. Let’s keep trying to get the word out more broadly, to prevent the sad and frustrating appearance of new victims here on this page.
Lisa
One more thing – and I think this is a good plug for professional painters.
You can hire a professional painter for a modest price. Once I realized this, I determined to never again try to do any extensive painting on my own. If you have a reputable professional painter on your side – who you’ve allowed to use the paint of their choice, THEN if something like this happens, you’ve got an ally.
The paint companies are more likely to give credibility to their professional customers. However, the operative word here is professional. And that means they conduct themselves professionally as well. There are too many online comments from painters, on painter’s sites, that make clear that even some professional painters are more likely to defend their favorite paint companies than their own clients. And this is NOT paint sites like this one, which belongs to an individual interest in a named location. I’m talking about sites where painters can share information with each other, or gripe about their customers. On those sites you’ll find some painters who are familiar with the problem, or those who are ready to blame the victim.
A reputable professional painter, in my opinion, is a good investment in light of the growing incidence of wall odor phenomenon.
Lynne
Just happened to check page and found Lisa’s comments which are invaluable as she has described exactly what we are dealing with when it comes to the paint manufacturers and their deceit and unwillingness to accept any responsibility. Paint is applied in millions of homes and statistically even a low percentage of substandard, contaminated, or problematic paint which is chemically based, can run into the thousands per year meaning those exposed, as Lisa points out, often have serious medical consequences which often linger and impact their future health as well. It is a deteriorating process, and for some can even end in death. Not an overstatement.
My own personal experience attests to what Lisa wrote. I went into this hoping to work this out fairly with the manufacturer keeping an open mind. However, I was dumped by the representative who said it was just a paint smell like, and i’m quoting, ‘a car smell that can take 6 years, 6 months or a few weeks.’ Called corporate and followed directions, brought in paint cans to compare with new cans, two employees sent it off to the lab for testing supposedly and gave me a receipt stating my cans of paint had an unpleasant odor different from the new ones. Corporate called saying the paint was ok and the odor was like the original batch so it got an A+ and passed with flying colors according to them. When I mentioned their own employees reaction, he said, ‘that doesn’t mean anything.’ I then asked why they did not test for voc’s as odors usually originate from that and he replied, ‘it’s a no voc paint and has no voc’s’. That is a false and misleading statement. As Lisa and others pointed out, there is no such thing as zero voc paint…check on line.
Therefore, even tho they have a lab here, I was forced to pay for testing myself and most of us can’t afford it which they know. It can run into the thousands unless you get someone savvy to help with this.
I wrote him an e-mail laying out the situation which was never answered. I later called and got a corporate person who sent a local rep personally to see and smell the room. She walked into the room and said, ‘it smells like new paint’, which it does in some ways, then walked out of the room and said when asked by me her further impressions, said and I quote exactly, ‘the paint’s dry…I didn’t smell anything.” When I quoted her comments when she first walked into the room that she smelled new paint, she denied saying it.
She lied and reported back to her boss so it was a setup by him. Also, he offered only to repaint the room.
IT IS COMMON KNOWLEDGE THAT REPAINTING OVER PAINT WITH AN ODOR WILL NOT REMOVE THE PROBLEM AS THE ODOR COMES THROUGH AS MOST OF YOU KNOW, BUT IT DOES REMOVE THE EVIDENCE. So does getting rid of the cans which is why you must retain them for proof. I wrote that in caps as it shows how deceitful and manipulating he was being as he is a top person there and it is common knowledge that moldy or smelly paint is difficult to remove. Everyone in the business knows that.
And he is part of an industry that is trying to deny a serious problem out here for hundreds, perhaps thousands of us, whose lives have been drastically affected by a chemically based product which changes with each so called innovation. To make zero voc paint or low voc paint, there are modifications. Some are successful and some are not, creating new problems and dangers…and challenges to them.
It’s largely about money and profit…i’m all for them making profit…and realize they are researching to find a totally safe paint for their own benefit but also for ours, but in the meanwhile they are exposing us to dangerous toxic fumes and other problems inherent in a product we buy in good faith and which can not only contaminate our homes but cause serious health problems for some. Even if it is a milder health problem, what right do they have to sell and not take responsibility for the times there is a failure in their product.
Why are they getting away with it? As Lisa points out, everyone is looking the other way, and with Flint, and all the other problems these days, not enuff attention is being given this.
Unless we do what some have said, and that is to either do a class action suit or get the help of a politician, media person, investigative journalist, university medical or science department doing class projects and they do focus on this type of thing in some law schools…
Another option is for all of us to focus on only one or two places or addresses and all of us write it en masse, if there are enough of us…don’t know.
Just want to add that there are those times, as Lisa said, when other factors are the problem and not the paint. Most of us go into this wanting the truth whatever it may be…perhaps it is something else…and the paint itself not the problem. But they go into it defensively refusing to deal with us fairly and honestly, as I personally have found out. In other words, if they can get away with it, they’ll try. So much for American values, the flag and God.
Thanks to all of you for being there, those that are sincere in all of this who have shared so much…Kane stands out as does Lisa, Anita, Michelle and so many more. All should win a Nobel Prize for courage, tenacity and how to or the Noble one..
Lisa
Lynne, thank you for your kind words. Your situation is an example of how even “professional” work can leave us with a bad and long-lasting problem – and fighting for redress when your contractor should be fighting for YOU.
I hope it will end well for you. I commend you on your persistence, endurance and tenacity – and your positive attitude, which can be so difficult to maintain when your dwelling has been fouled in such an irresponsible way, by not only an anonymous corporate entity, but individuals who can look you in the eye and contradict their own words.
Thanks again.
Anita
JG I am sorry to hear you have this dangerous problem like so many of us. Thank you for sharing your horrendous experience in detail. You all we have been poisoned by these paints. Person after person has posted that they have been made ill and / or have had to seal off rooms or leave their homes entirely. We have to treat this like the terrorism it is. ALL OF US NEED TO JOIN TOGETHER TODAY AND REPORT THESE ON-GOING INCIDENCES OF SUSPICIOUS CHEMICAL CONTAMINATION AS “SUSPECTED WEAPONS OF MASS DESTRUCTION TO HOMELAND SECURITY, THE U.S. DEPT. OF JUSTICE and THE WHITE HOUSE. We have been told to be vigilante. Call and go online today. Have your family, friends and others report this also. Our health, lives and that of others is at stake.
Dan
Same problem here. Painted several rooms with the same paint brand (zero voc) but different colors. Only one color had the odor but it was foul. My son complained about the smell and couldn’t be in the room anymore. I just primed it with Killz and painted over today with another color from a room that didn’t smell bad. Still waiting for the result, but not feeling very hopeful after reading this.